re: Did it ever happen to you that you modified a prj file while editing in another IDE, without noticing? (REALbasic network user group Mailinglist archive)
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| re: Did it ever happen to you that you modified a prj file while editing in another IDE, without noticing? |
| Date: 21.03.10 04:50 (Sat, 20 Mar 2010 23:50:07 -0400) |
| From: Kelsey McClanahan |
|
> From: "Thomas
Tempelmann" <<email address removed>> > Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2010 2:33 PM > > I try to raise awareness about a potential data loss problem, but > RS doesn't understand it yet, it seems. If you agree with my point, > please comment: > > If you don't see the problem, please ignore - it doesn't help if you > add comments that just shows that it does not affect you - it would > only hurt those like me who are affected by it. Thank you. Thomas, I looked at your feature request. With all due respect, I fail to see why you refuse to use version control. Simply put, if you would use a distributed version control system, like Mercurial or Git -- you wouldn't lose changes to your source code when you engage in foolish behavior, like editing the SAME file from two REAL Studio IDEs open on two separate computers at the exact same time. You're asking RS to solve problems that you alone create. When you play with fire, sooner or later you end up burned. That's precisely what you're doing by not using version control and failing to edit copies contained on a each computer's LOCAL repository. You choose to edit a file stored in a single location from multiple locations. Pour some petrol on it while you're at it. This is a never ending recipe for disaster and destruction. >From all the times I've seen you post on lists about losing source code and complaining because REAL Studio didn't warn you when you did an ill-advised activity, you must be completely incinerated by now. Seriously, the best solution won't be gained asking RS to jump through hoops and code in a myriad of warnings and error messages. The easy solution is for you to start living and breathing source code control, and to learn the programmer's motto: "ALWAYS WORK ON A COPY." It's a very simple rule. If you would take this advice to heart, you'd find that every complaint you've made lately about losing source code would have been a non-event. If, you would simply work on a copy. The most bizarre thing I can't wrap my mind around is the fact that you're obviously not dim-witted. I've seen you answer many questions and offer great advice on how to accomplish all sorts of advanced requests. You're quick to provide solid insight into solving problems with code. So why is it that you refuse to embrace and practice sound management of your source code? Cheers! ---> Kelsey McClanahan _______________________________________________ Unsubscribe or switch delivery mode: <http://www.realsoftware.com/support/listmanager/> Search the archives: <http://support.realsoftware.com/listarchives/lists.html> |
| Did it ever happen to you that you modified a prj file while editing in another IDE, without noticing? |
| Date: 20.03.10 23:32 (Sat, 20 Mar 2010 23:32:08 +0100) |
| From: Thomas Tempelmann |
|
I try to raise awareness about a potential data loss problem, but RS
doesn't understand it yet, it seems. If you agree with my point, please comment: <feedback://showreport?report_id725> If you don't see the problem, please ignore - it doesn't help if you add comments that just shows that it does not affect you - it would only hurt those like me who are affected by it. Thank you. |
| Re: Did it ever happen to you that you modified a prj file while editing in another IDE, without noticing? |
| Date: 22.03.10 20:35 (Mon, 22 Mar 2010 20:35:17 +0100) |
| From: Thomas Tempelmann |
|
On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 15:00, Glenn L. Austin <<email address removed>> wrote:
> > As someone who works on documents that change over time (e.g. "source code"), I can't imagine not using one anymore, especially as a programmer who makes a living writing code. You seems to assume that I do not know or never use VCS. That's not true, and this discussion is losing focus. Please let's get back on topic! |
| Re: Did it ever happen to you that you modified a prj file while editing in another IDE, without noticing? |
| Date: 22.03.10 20:33 (Mon, 22 Mar 2010 20:33:44 +0100) |
| From: Thomas Tempelmann |
|
On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 17:32, Philip Mobley <<email address removed>> wrote:
> > And my "solution" was to prevent the problem in the first place by placing a read/write lock on the file(s) to prevent access by network or other REAL Studio IDE versions. This would force you to close the project on the first IDE in order to open it up on the second. Yes, that would be an alternative solution, and I welcome you to add this as a suggestion to the feedback I posted at the start of this thread. But it appears that's all moot because no one else shares the thought that this would be useful or even necessary - even Geoff thinks that one should use a VCS and who those don't apparently don't deserve any further protection. |
| Re: Did it ever happen to you that you modified a prj file while editing in another IDE, without noticing? |
| Date: 22.03.10 20:31 (Mon, 22 Mar 2010 20:31:47 +0100) |
| From: Thomas Tempelmann |
|
On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 14:18, Andrew Keller <<email address removed>> wrote:
> Version control is never overkill. Especially if you use Git. > The point of version control is to keep track of changes in content. Andrew, you don't have to tell me. I am developing for almost 30 years and am using svn for a lot of projects where I know that it's useful. Testing a prj on different platforms is not where it's necessary for exchanging the sources between the platforms. Besides, RB's support for version control sucks, mainly due to nonexisting support for shared classes, hence I avoid it where possible, and it's never bothered me so far. |
| Re: Did it ever happen to you that you modified a prj file while editing in another IDE, without noticing? |
| Date: 22.03.10 17:32 (Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:32:28 -0700) |
| From: Philip Mobley |
|
On Mar 22, 2010, at 2:20 AM, Thomas Tempelmann wrote:
> But I see - no one seems to run into the problems I constantly run into. It's kind of a "pro" feature anyway, because only few RB users will test their projects on multiple systems (which requires multiple Pro or a Studio license). And maybe all those who do testing on multiple systems use a VCS even for that, but I can't imagine setting up a svn server just for this, along with clients on OSX, Windows and Linux, only to share a single project file for protection against accidental overwrites. And my "solution" was to prevent the problem in the first place by placing a read/write lock on the file(s) to prevent access by network or other REAL Studio IDE versions. This would force you to close the project on the first IDE in order to open it up on the second. On another note, RS should create or be part of an open-source project to make our own VCS designed to work specifically with REAL Studio. _______________________________________________ Unsubscribe or switch delivery mode: <http://www.realsoftware.com/support/listmanager/> Search the archives: <http://support.realsoftware.com/listarchives/lists.html> |
| Re: Did it ever happen to you that you modified a prj file while editing in another IDE, without noticing? |
| Date: 22.03.10 14:52 (Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:52:58 -0400) |
| From: Andrew Keller |
|
On Mar 22, 2010, at 5:20 AM, Thomas Tempelmann wrote:
> It's not easy to set up and maintain a VCS. And it's cumbersome to use it, especially if you want to just test one project for yourself on various systems. Obviously, you have never used Git. I test my projects on multiple systems all the time, and it is very easy. > VCS is overkill and causes more work than necessary there. Especially on a Mac with Time Machine, where I get my hourly backups of my work anyway, so I do not need to rely on VCS for version backups too much. Time Machine backups are automated and regular, whereas VCS commits are manual and controlled. Time Machine tracks changes in time, whereas a VCS tracks changes in content. It's a very subtle, but very important difference. Time Machine and VCSs both have their places. > But I see - no one seems to run into the problems I constantly run into. Join the club... People never use my programs the way I intended. > It's kind of a "pro" feature anyway, because only few RB users will test their projects on multiple systems (which requires multiple Pro or a Studio license). And maybe all those who do testing on multiple systems use a VCS even for that, but I can't imagine setting up a svn server just for this, along with clients on OSX, Windows and Linux, only to share a single project file for protection against accidental overwrites. Ouch!!! The pain!!!! A VC system that requires a server??? No data integrity verification??? Oh, good - it was just a bad dream. I use Git. Dramatics aside, I do understand your point. Setting up a svn server and repository would be a bit time consuming. It's one of the reasons why I don't use Subversion. Don't get me wrong - you would also have to install Git, but Git's installer is just about as simple as it gets. Installing Git is about as complex as installing VMware. ~ Andrew Keller _______________________________________________ Unsubscribe or switch delivery mode: <http://www.realsoftware.com/support/listmanager/> Search the archives: <http://support.realsoftware.com/listarchives/lists.html> |
| Re: Did it ever happen to you that you modified a prj file while editing in another IDE, without noticing? |
| Date: 22.03.10 14:18 (Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:18:14 -0400) |
| From: Andrew Keller |
|
On Mar 21, 2010, at 4:25 AM, Thomas Tempelmann wrote:
> If you use VMware for testing on multiple platforms, or if you use two separate computers for testing the same project, you have no reason to set up a VCS, when you can just use file sharing to access the project. Sure, I could set up a VSC, but that's total overkill in this > situation. I sincerely hope I am not adding to the fire, but that really got me. Version control is never overkill. Especially if you use Git. The point of version control is not to share content across multiple computers. That's what things like NFS or VMware Shared Folders are for. The point of version control is to keep track of changes in content. The really good ones also verify their own integrity on the fly so that you know if something goes corrupt. If you unknowingly change a file from a different IDE, the VC system will tell you. If your data goes corrupt, the VC system will tell you. I use Git for any of three reasons: 1) I want to track the history of some content, whether it's by file or by content, for example, the history of editing a photo, or actual programming (respectively). 2) I have multiple copies of something, and I want to make sure I don't accidentally overwrite changes, for example, my Mail folder. 3) I want to know immediately if something goes corrupt, for example, my Starcraft maps. The stereotypical use of a VC system – group programming – implements all three of the above points, although I have found that almost every application of a VC system implements all three to some degree, with the relative importance of each point varying. > Besides, VCS sucks with .rbp and xml projects, and I can not use rbvcp format because of it not supporting shared class files, which I need for other reasons. If you do not care about the line-by-line changes (see point #2 above), then VCSs that can handle binary files do not suck with the .rbp format. XML is already line-by-line, so it actually displays diffs quite nicely in any system, if you mentally remove the XML sugar. Git handles both very nicely. The .rbvcp format does not support shared class files because it doesn't have to. Right-click on an item and choose Make External, just like the other formats. Consider that VMware is very powerful. Not only can it share filesystem mount points between the host and the VM, but it can also share networking. This makes file sharing and RB's Remote Debugger Stub (respectfully) very easy to use. Using two editors to edit the same file or project is just asking for trouble. I would use a single IDE, and the remote debugger stub. If I felt that I absolutely must have the RB IDE on the Mac and in VMware, then I would have two separate working trees at each location, synchronized using Git. This way, the synchronization is manual, and it makes sure I don't unknowingly overwrite things (see point #2 above). ~ Andrew Keller _______________________________________________ Unsubscribe or switch delivery mode: <http://www.realsoftware.com/support/listmanager/> Search the archives: <http://support.realsoftware.com/listarchives/lists.html> |
| Re: Did it ever happen to you that you modified a prj file while editing in another IDE, without noticing? |
| Date: 22.03.10 10:20 (Mon, 22 Mar 2010 10:20:15 +0100) |
| From: Thomas Tempelmann |
|
On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 05:58, RPEHLM <<email address removed>> wrote:
> Is it worth asking RS to provide [optional] IDE integration with a VCS (e.g. > Subversion)? I'm using RB Professional so if this is already a feature of > Studio I wouldn't know about it :) I use Studio, and no, I do not think adding VCS support would help this case. Reason: It's not easy to set up and maintain a VCS. And it's cumbersome to use it, especially if you want to just test one project for yourself on various systems. VCS is overkill and causes more work than necessary there. Especially on a Mac with Time Machine, where I get my hourly backups of my work anyway, so I do not need to rely on VCS for version backups too much. But I see - no one seems to run into the problems I constantly run into. It's kind of a "pro" feature anyway, because only few RB users will test their projects on multiple systems (which requires multiple Pro or a Studio license). And maybe all those who do testing on multiple systems use a VCS even for that, but I can't imagine setting up a svn server just for this, along with clients on OSX, Windows and Linux, only to share a single project file for protection against accidental overwrites. Bummer. |
| Re: Did it ever happen to you that you modified a prj file while editing in another IDE, without noticing? |
| Date: 22.03.10 15:00 (Mon, 22 Mar 2010 07:00:15 -0700) |
| From: Glenn L. Austin |
|
On Mar 22, 2010, at 2:20 AM, Thomas Tempelmann wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 05:58, RPEHLM <<email address removed>> wrote: >> Is it worth asking RS to provide [optional] IDE integration with a VCS (e.g. >> Subversion)? I'm using RB Professional so if this is already a feature of >> Studio I wouldn't know about it :) > > I use Studio, and no, I do not think adding VCS support would help this case. > > Reason: > > It's not easy to set up and maintain a VCS. And it's cumbersome to use > it, especially if you want to just test one project for yourself on > various systems. VCS is overkill and causes more work than necessary > there. Especially on a Mac with Time Machine, where I get my hourly > backups of my work anyway, so I do not need to rely on VCS for version > backups too much. Most version control systems are really easy to set up. As someone who works on documents that change over time (e.g. "source code"), I can't imagine not using one anymore, especially as a programmer who makes a living writing code. To set up and use Subversion locally is incredibly simple. You really just need to know five commands: svnadmin create path_to_repository svn checkout file:///path_to_repository path_to_working_copy svn update path_to_working_copy svn add path_to_new_file_or_folder_in_working_copy svn commit path_to_working_copy If you want more info on what's been changed, you want two more: svn status svn diff Most other modern VCS are about as simple. NOT using a version control system makes about as much sense today as hand-rolling assembly. Sure you can do it, but once you've used an assembler, you'll wonder why you did it any other way. I use it to even track changes on the web sites I develop. The other reason for using a version control system is to simplify moving files from machine to machine. That takes a little bit more work setting up a server of some kind (especially on Windows), but is still incredibly easy. There's really no excuse. As far as whether changing the same file on two machines simultaneously should be supported, well, that takes a LOT of VERY specialized code to do that, and even more to do that correctly. It's not a simple process on even a single machine. I save as XML files for most of my RB programming, and I've got multiple projects that work with multiple external objects -- in fact, I've got two projects that share much of their code (the second is an enhanced version of the first). |
| Re: Did it ever happen to you that you modified a prj file while editing in another IDE, without noticing? |
| Date: 22.03.10 11:25 (Mon, 22 Mar 2010 11:25:02 +0100) |
| From: RPEHLM |
|
In my case (and I realise this getting OT) my ISP provides an SVN
service as a one-click install. Along with TortoiseSVN (integrates SVN into Windows Explorer) on my deskside, laptop and even my netbook machines, SVN wasn't that hard to set up. And I'm only a hobbyist* :) In addition my project files get backed up to my home server every 30mins (I've forgotten what I did a whole hour ago!). Regards Robin *CHEAT! OK so I'm a retired IT Manager (but that's management so doesn't count) Thomas Tempelmann wrote: > On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 05:58, RPEHLM <<email address removed>> wrote: > >> Is it worth asking RS to provide [optional] IDE integration with a VCS (e..g. >> Subversion)? I'm using RB Professional so if this is already a feature of >> Studio I wouldn't know about it :) >> > I use Studio, and no, I do not think adding VCS support would help this case. > > Reason: > > It's not easy to set up and maintain a VCS. And it's cumbersome to use > it, especially if you want to just test one project for yourself on > various systems. VCS is overkill and causes more work than necessary > there. Especially on a Mac with Time Machine, where I get my hourly > backups of my work anyway, so I do not need to rely on VCS for version > backups too much. > > But I see - no one seems to run into the problems I constantly run > into. It's kind of a "pro" feature anyway, because only few RB users > will test their projects on multiple systems (which requires multiple > Pro or a Studio license). And maybe all those who do testing on > multiple systems use a VCS even for that, but I can't imagine setting > up a svn server just for this, along with clients on OSX, Windows and > Linux, only to share a single project file for protection against > accidental overwrites. > > Bummer. > E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.514) Database version: 6.14600 http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ _______________________________________________ Unsubscribe or switch delivery mode: <http://www.realsoftware.com/support/listmanager/> Search the archives: <http://support.realsoftware.com/listarchives/lists.html> |
| Re: Did it ever happen to you that you modified a prj file while editing in another IDE, without noticing? |
| Date: 21.03.10 09:25 (Sun, 21 Mar 2010 09:25:12 +0100) |
| From: Thomas Tempelmann |
|
On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 23:59, Philip Mobley <<email address removed>> wrote:
> On Mar 20, 2010, at 3:32 PM, Thomas Tempelmann wrote: > External items shared between projects are already synced by REAL Studio, and so shouldn't be affected by a file lock. Both you and Kelsey are not understanding or seeing the problem. If you use VMware for testing on multiple platforms, or if you use two separate computers for testing the same project, you have no reason to set up a VCS, when you can just use file sharing to access the project. Sure, I could set up a VSC, but that's total overkill in this situation. Besides, VCS sucks with .rbp and xml projects, and I can not use rbvcp format because of it not supporting shared class files, which I need for other reasons. As I already pointed out, many other tools do protect the user from accidental overwriting files that are edited by separate apps. And none of them expect the user to take care of that themselves requiring him to set up a VCS for that. They, instead, support the user from losing changes accidentally. RB should do that, too. I'm asking for a SAFEGUARD, not a solution to managing conflicts. |
| Re: Did it ever happen to you that you modified a prj file while editing in another IDE, without noticing? |
| Date: 22.03.10 05:58 (Mon, 22 Mar 2010 05:58:30 +0100) |
| From: RPEHLM |
|
Thomas, I know this does not answer your specific complaint but ...
Is it worth asking RS to provide [optional] IDE integration with a VCS (e.g. Subversion)? I'm using RB Professional so if this is already a feature of Studio I wouldn't know about it :) There is an example where this is done (at least in the Windows world - and for free at that). Take a look at the Eclipse IDE. Regards Robin Thomas Tempelmann wrote: > On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 23:59, Philip Mobley <<email address removed>> wrote: > >> On Mar 20, 2010, at 3:32 PM, Thomas Tempelmann wrote: >> External items shared between projects are already synced by REAL Studio, and so shouldn't be affected by a file lock. >> > Both you and Kelsey are not understanding or seeing the problem. > > If you use VMware for testing on multiple platforms, or if you use two > separate computers for testing the same project, you have no reason to > set up a VCS, when you can just use file sharing to access the > project. Sure, I could set up a VSC, but that's total overkill in this > situation. > > Besides, VCS sucks with .rbp and xml projects, and I can not use rbvcp > format because of it not supporting shared class files, which I need > for other reasons. > > As I already pointed out, many other tools do protect the user from > accidental overwriting files that are edited by separate apps. And > none of them expect the user to take care of that themselves requiring > him to set up a VCS for that. They, instead, support the user from > losing changes accidentally. RB should do that, too. > > I'm asking for a SAFEGUARD, not a solution to managing conflicts. > E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.514) Database version: 6.14600 http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ _______________________________________________ Unsubscribe or switch delivery mode: <http://www.realsoftware.com/support/listmanager/> Search the archives: <http://support.realsoftware.com/listarchives/lists.html> |
| Re: Did it ever happen to you that you modified a prj file while editing in another IDE, without noticing? |
| Date: 20.03.10 23:59 (Sat, 20 Mar 2010 15:59:05 -0700) |
| From: Philip Mobley |
|
On Mar 20, 2010, at 3:32 PM, Thomas Tempelmann wrote:
> If you don't see the problem, please ignore - it doesn't help if you add comments that just shows that it does not affect you - it would only hurt those like me who are affected by it. Thank you. I see the problem and I could even see it happening to me, but its seems more complex than you are describing. I almost think the solution should be to lock the files completely (read/write) while in use by a single client, UNLESS the files are being hosted by a Version Control server (which has its own protections). External items shared between projects are already synced by REAL Studio, and so shouldn't be affected by a file lock. _______________________________________________ Unsubscribe or switch delivery mode: <http://www.realsoftware.com/support/listmanager/> Search the archives: <http://support.realsoftware.com/listarchives/lists.html> |
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